Episode Summary
How do you evolve a 40-year-old brand without losing what made people love it in the first place?
In this episode, Brittany sits down with Jeff Hetsel, President and Chief Operating Officer of Cicis Pizza, to talk about the people, principles, and decisions driving the iconic brand forward. Jeff has spent 34 years with Cicis, working his way through nearly every level of the organization and developing a perspective that spans both the corporate office and the restaurant floor.
They explore how Cicis has remained true to its core identity while continuing to evolve, from expanding its game rooms and launching a loyalty program to embracing technology as a way to eliminate friction and help employees better serve guests.
They also dig into what value really means beyond price, why Jeff sees franchising as an opportunity to change lives at scale, and how Cicis continues to invest in the people who bring the brand to life every day.
Whether you’re leading a legacy brand, managing a growing team, or thinking about how to evolve your customer experience, this conversation is a reminder that growth and innovation work best when you stay close to the people you serve.
You’ll learn:
- Why Jeff believes “the answers are all outside of this building”
- How staying close to frontline employees can make you a better leader
- How Cicis Pizza thinks about value beyond price
- Why evolving a legacy brand doesn’t mean abandoning what made it successful
- How Cicis uses technology to eliminate friction—not replace people
- Why Jeff sees franchising as a way to change lives at scale
- How Cicis is using loyalty to build stronger relationships with its guests
- Why the people closest to your customers can uncover opportunities you’ll never find in a boardroom
- Why great people remain the foundation of a great customer experience
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Transcription
Brittany Hodak: [00:00:00] Jeff, thanks so much for joining me on the show
Jeff Hetsel: Well, thank you, Brittany. I’m glad to be here
Brittany Hodak: So you have been with CiCi’s for 34 years now, which is incredible. I wanna know what was it that turned you into a superfan of this brand long before you became its president?
Jeff Hetsel: I think it was really the founder. Um, I had gone to chef school and I, my big focus is I wanted to be a chef and own a, a really nice restaurant and just focus on that. I thought that was where my life was gonna go. when I met the founder and he explained his vision and what he was trying to do, uh, and the opportunity that existed there, um, I was sold and never looked back
Brittany Hodak: What was it about the vision that really spoke to you?
Jeff Hetsel: I think it was just the opportunity as a 23-year-old, uh, you know, the opportunity to, uh, come in and, uh, be a multi-unit manager or an owner in a year, whichever path I chose. [00:01:00] and then when I went the corporate route and became a district manager, the opportunity to be a, a regional manager and a VP of operations.
You know, it just There was, because we were growing so fast, there was a lot of growth, and all you really had to do was, do whatever it takes to take care of the guest. And I just, you know, worked as hard as I possibly could. I think when I was younger, I on adrenaline and fear. You know, I didn’t wanna let the guests down, didn’t wanna let him down. Um, just loved the, the, the core. We made all the food, uh, by hand fresh every day, which we still do. We would make the guests whatever pizza they wanted, which we still hold onto those core values. We had just jumped to counter service, and it was just fun. And every day would say, “How do you do it?”
Or if I had my shirt on and I was on a plane, somebody’d say, “How do y’all do that? How do you do all you can eat for 2.99, 3.99? How, that work? It’s so great. We love it.” [00:02:00] and it just, it just felt, it just felt good, uh, to serve people and, um … But I really loved it. I just loved the vision, loved the founder. Still friends with him, still talk with him. I think maybe you got to see him at the conference, uh, that we had. But he’s just an incredible, uh, guy, and I still draw from that well of things I learned from him every single day still
Brittany Hodak: I love it. Well, you have had just about every role within this brand as you, as you just described, and I’m curious, what do you think some executives misunderstand or miss about guest experience when they either don’t have that background or they get too far away from that frontline guest services experience?
What do they, what do they miss?
Jeff Hetsel: I think one of the, one of the things I say quite often, and I believe it wholeheartedly, are the answers are all outside of this building. I’m in our corporate office right now in Dallas, Texas, and the answers are not in the building. The answers are with the team members, they’re with the [00:03:00] guests, they’re with the franchisees.
They’re, they’re… Absolutely the answers aren’t here. Now, we do a good job of aggregating wonderful ideas and turning them into action, by and large, um, I think, you know, an office environment can be an echo chamber to some degree. You know, people may have different motives for why they’re putting different things forward. and, um, but I think getting out of the and going into the stores is the most valuable time I spend. I was in o- one of the stores today from 9:00 to 10:00 working on our deep dish back to its original, uh, quality, and we’re just so close and, and we’re working so hard on it. But you can’t do that in the office.
So they drive it 20 minutes and bring it to you. I want to see it right out of the oven. I want to see it in the oven. I want to see how they put it together. So, I love the office. I love, know, the people in the office, and I love the office, but I love [00:04:00] being in the stores way more. Way more.
Brittany Hodak: That’s fantastic. And you are still a franchisee, so that’s such a unique role, and I’m wondering how does that change and shift your perspective both serving as the president, but also as a franchisee with your own money on the line? That must come into play when you think about the decisions that you’re making, both at corporate and with your stores.
Jeff Hetsel: Oftentimes when executives go to work for, uh, other big restaurant chains, they want them to put money in. They want to… They want them to invest. They want them to be, you know, financially invested in that. Um, I think that they should not do that, and they should make every new executive own something of the brand that they’re running. I think they should make them do that or have them do that or allow them to do that. anything that anybody brings to me, uh, as an idea, as a thought, as a new procedure, as a new product, one second I [00:05:00] can sum up how that’s gonna affect my P&L, how is it gonna affect my team, how is it going to affect, uh, the guest. Um, it just takes a second. I mean, it, it… If you know… If you’re a franchisee and you know the restaurant inside and out… And again, I had the opportunity to be a, a ma- a manager and a general manager, district manager, all those different positions with the company. But it’s very valuable to me to be able to sum it up really quick, because I can give you a really quick yes or a really quick no based on my, uh, time as a franchisee. And I’m swimming in the same water my franchisees are. I’m running the distribution center where we all buy our food together, and I’m, I’m, I’m definitely committed and in it to win it. Um, but being a franchisee gives you a way to look at things that you would never be able to look at if you parachuted in from another brand.
It just… And Cicis is a very unique, [00:06:00] business. so, y- you know, the day that I retire, the day that I’m gone, my recommendation wholeheartedly would be the next person come in and he or she own a store, because it certainly gives you a perspective that you cannot get if you’re not all the way in.
Brittany Hodak: I love that so much. And I feel like guests can tell, and just in general, not speaking only specifically about CiCi’s, although I certainly think this is true for your brand. But as a customer, as a member, as a guest, you can tell when there is a disconnect between the, like, ivory tower conference room and the people working the front lines, or when the brand feels like they truly get you, when you’re like, “Oh, this just makes sense.
This is just easy,” or, “This is really efficient.” And so I think that’s such a great call because, I mean, let’s say a decade of experience in the boardroom, how quickly could you eclipse that as a franchisee? Six months? A year? Like, how, how quickly [00:07:00] actually doing it could you get a better education than, like, a decade of being around the people and reading the dashboards and reports from the people doing it?
Jeff Hetsel: Well, I think is… You know, I think the whole thing is if I summed up restaurant business, like in one word, I’d call it partnership. It’s really partnerships. Partnership with your guests, your franchisees. It’s the people you work with. Those board members, those Wharton grads, those folks are unbelievably valuable, you know, partners. But when it comes down to understanding the restaurant, there’s been many times I’ve taken somebody from feet and snatched them down and brought them into a store and showed them why this is not going to work. You’re answering a question that nobody is asking, and this is the damage it’s gonna do. If this is what you want, th- we can have further discussion, but I think I’ve shown you in just five or 10 minutes in the store that that’s not gonna work. [00:08:00] and I’ll tell you, it works every time, and it really… and you’re not in a board situation questioning or embarrassing. I always just kind of say, “Hey, let’s go out in the store and see that work, and let’s go try that together.” Right?
Brittany Hodak: Yeah
Jeff Hetsel: and then a, a lot of times it won’t. A good example is at CiCi’s on our round pizzas on the buffet, we put sauce, cheese, and then the toppings, because as you’re walking down the buffet, you can identify what the toppings are to select your meal. Well, somebody said, “Why don’t we just, you know, put the cheese over the toppings?” And had a lot of really valid reasons why they thought it would trap heat better and w- w- what a lot lever that looks like. And I took him to the store and explained it to him, and we… I just showed him. We did it, and the guests were like, “What pizza is this? What pizza is this? What pizza is this?” He goes, “Okay, I get it. We’re done here.” know? Um, so it, it’s… That’s a real small example. But I think the partnership between myself and a, and a person that’s working in one of the [00:09:00] stores, a franchisee, or people at that board level, so to speak, all those relationships are very important to me
Brittany Hodak: I love that. And you know, I think that’s such a great takeaway for everybody listening, even if you’re not in a leadership position. I remember when I was 22, I had my very first job. I was working in New York City for a record label, and everybody above me was so obsessed with, like, indie record stores.
And I’m looking at all the numbers and I’m like, “Yeah, indie record stores are cool, but I have to, I have to do, you know, 47 different phone calls to set this up in 100 stores. Why are we not doing stuff with Target and Best Buy and Walmart?” And everybody was like, “Walmart’s not cool.” And I’m like, “Yeah, but Walmart, it’s 3,500 stores or 3,700 stores,” whatever it was at the time.
It’s like they’re ordering, like, thousands of times of quantity. And it very quickly became clear from me asking questions, most of the people in that room had never been to a Walmart, had no interest in going to a Walmart, and had no idea what the experience of actually buying music inside a [00:10:00] Walmart store looked like.
And so as somebody who grew up in Oklahoma and Arkansas and had pretty much only bought music at Walmarts and Targets and Best Buys because there weren’t any record stores near me after l- all the, like, Sam Goodys went out of, uh, out of business, I was very quickly putting together these promotions. And the opportunity was obvious to me in a way that it wasn’t obvious to people who had decades more experience, and on paper should have been doing those things because that just wasn’t the way that they were thinking.
So I think regardless of your role, whatever company you’re in, your perspective, your point of view, you bring so many things that you can think about things in a way that convincing somebody of like, “Yeah, it’s valid to have the cheese on top of pizza, but here’s why it’s not gonna work. Like, I don’t care what the 27 great reasons are.
Here’s the one reason that would never, ever work.” And so trusting that intuition and instinct because everyone brings such a unique perspective and expertise based on the experiences that they’ve lived.
Jeff Hetsel: To your point, one of the things I say, uh, uh, quite [00:11:00] often is, “You’re, you’re not our guest. You’re not our guest. If you didn’t work here, you wouldn’t go here, right?” enough, you know. I mean, there, there’s some folks that just aren’t our guests, so they really don’t understand, you know, and that’s what made it compelling to have you, uh, do our conference is that you were a guest, you know, so you got us. But I think if you’re not our guest, if the– there– we’re not a place that you would go, I really want people in my business to all be raving fans and superfans and focus on, CCs, but there’s just times when people maybe aren’t your guest, especially in those board positions or, or places where CCs aren’t, New York, you know, LA, right?
Brittany Hodak: Yeah. Yeah, and it, well, this feels like a great time for me to bring up the fact that I have been a lifelong CiCis superfan. I don’t ever remember a time CiCis wasn’t a part of my life, and all of the celebrations, birthday parties, after the, you know, I was gonna say soccer games and softball games. I’m gonna be honest, I had about half a season of an athletic [00:12:00] career before I broke my arm, and that was the end of that.
I was not super athletic. But after, you know, other events and school outings and such, it was like speech and debate tournaments, you know? S- just super cool speech and debate kids. But all the things that we do, would do. And in college, I mean, I’ve told you this before, I would’ve starved in college if it, if it wasn’t for the 2.99 buffet that we could get down to 1.99 sometimes with the coupon.
And now I love taking my kids to CiCis, not only because the pizza’s great, not only because my husband can, you know, request his barbecue chicken pizza when we get there, and somebody’ll make it for him if it’s not on the buffet, uh, but because of how fun the games are. And I really want you to talk a little bit about, you know, you, you, you talk a lot about being the best value anywhere, and I think that’s absolutely true, but it’s also one of the most fun, self-contained experiences for people with kids because it’s not as super over-stimulating, overwhelming as like a Dave & Buster’s.
It doesn’t feel as like germ-infested as some of the places that [00:13:00] are, you know, targeting like the more younger kids with the, you know, we’ve got pizza and games and snot. Like, it’s just, it’s not that experience. So I want you to talk a little bit about how intentional CiCis has been with the brand and what you do, because maybe there are some people listening right now who haven’t been to a CiCis before, either because of, you know, geography reasons or, or, or whatever, um, and talk about what makes this brand so special and why you’ve kept such a laser focus on like this particular space.
I think a lot of times, um, brands try to be everything to everybody, and they end up being like nothing that special to anyone. But for four decades now, CiCis has been laser focused on this is who we are, this is what we’re all about, and that’s why the people who love the brand really, really love the brand.
Jeff Hetsel: Well, I’m reminded of the best pizza value anywhere every day because my car license plate is TBPVA,
Brittany Hodak: I love it
Jeff Hetsel: I try to talk a lot about value just isn’t price. You know, value is definitely… Price is a [00:14:00] component, but it’s what you get for that price, we’re all-you-can-eat. Um, value is also speed, and we’re fast because the food’s, you know, right there in front of you the minute you are, uh, go through the register. Um, you know, we’ll make you whatever pizza you want, so value a lot of times can also mean variety, and I get exactly what I, what I, what I want for that money that I’m paying, we don’t really take that for granted. And we have a lot of guests that will never even walk into our game room. you have to be food first.
Uh, value, I think, is a very important core tenet for us. But we have lots of people that come in, and they just want their salad, they want their soup, they want some pizza, and they’re in their little zone and maybe watching a little TV or whatever they’re doing. And then we have kids, and they want to you know, plow through the food as quick as they can to get into the game room, and they have their own game room.
And we try really hard not to make, to make sure [00:15:00] that the games don’t impact the overall dining experience for those people that aren’t interested in games. We’re definitely not games first. You know, we may be a little games forward. We think it’s important. But a lot of times with older kids, you know, teenage kids, mom and dad are on one side of the restaurant, and they’re in their game room playing, living their best life in the game room, and then when everybody’s done, they all get up and leave together and jump in the car, and I love that.
I love that the parents get a few minutes to talk and, and just be with each other or, or those kind of things relative to, you know… and then there’s a lot of parents that go in there and play the games.
Brittany Hodak: I was gonna say, you know how it works with us, Jeff, is a lot of times mom is the one living her best life in the game room first because the boys have been told, “You gotta finish your pizza before you get to play the games,” or, “You gotta finish your pizza before you get the brownie before you play the games.”
So dad is watching the kids, and mom is living her best life winning at the claw machine and playing all of the other games. Hypothetically, not, like, outing myself as the person who does that every week or [00:16:00] anything.
Jeff Hetsel: I like that
Brittany Hodak: So, um, one of the things that I’ve heard you say again and again and again is anytime you go into a restaurant to check it out, you know, if it’s not one of yours, you wanna talk to the dishwasher and you wanna talk to the cook and ask them how they’re doing.
I wanna know why specifically those employees, and what have they taught you and what do they continue to teach you as you have these conversations now that you’re in this position?
Jeff Hetsel: Well, when I was 14 years old, my first jobs were dishwashing, bussing, um, you know, very excited when I got to go work in the kitchen. I’ve been a waiter, a bartender. I’ve been all of those positions. And I just remember over the years, people would come in and, know, do an inspection, or we’d have a big visit from the company leaders, and we were pretty well excluded from that experience. And, uh, every once in a while, someone would come talk to me, shake me- my hand, look me in the eyes, and it made me further want to be a part of this So I love the fact that [00:17:00] I have the chance to… know, franchising allows you to change lives at scale. know, um, I’m here for my franchisees, I’m here for my team, but every night when I go to bed, and I, you know, say my prayers, I’m praying for the 23,000 people, uh, that, you know, every store has a team member, and every team member has a family.
And so I kind of calculated that out to it’s about 23,000 people, they’re, they’re depending on me and my team to make great decisions. Um, and when I get a chance to go meet them, talk to them, ask them how it’s going, “What do you like about the job? What are you thinking about doing after, um, you know, after you’re done bussing tables here?
When you graduate from high school, what are you, what are you gonna be when you grow up? You know, what do you wanna do?” And if somebody says, “I want to be in the restaurant business,” I mean, I’ll give them my card, and I’ll keep up with them, and I’ll try to nur- nurture any way I possibly can. But I love to see those kind of [00:18:00] people that have been… that ha- can have a legacy career like I’ve had with CiCi’s. Um, I love seeing team members turn into managers, managers turn into franchisees. I think this year we’ve had six or seven managers, uh, that were in CiCi’s that, uh, now have become owners.
Brittany Hodak: That’s incredible
Jeff Hetsel: It’s pow- it, it’s very powerful, but you’re, you’re changing people’s life.
That, opportunity I got with CiCi’s and I got from Joe, I, I could e- very easily be a GM at a full service restaurant right now, or maybe just own West Restaurant. You know, CiCi’s changed my life. How do you, how do you find a way to give people the same opportunity you had? Um, and it’s, the most…
It’s some– It’s really the most fun part of the job is going in and talking to those folks, and they are so insightful, and they’re also unbelievably honest. “How do you like your job?” “You know what? This… It’s not been good. It’s been hot back here.” Well, if it’s affecting everybody in the kitchen, it’s gonna be affecting the folks in the dining room, and that’s an [00:19:00] opportunity to, to get better, right? Um, that’s the things going up the chain not getting to you. How do you, you know, “How are, how are you doing?” And they tell me some great story, and then you can celebrate it. “Hey, did you know I’ve… Th- This– I’ve been here for two years now.” “Oh, my gosh, that’s fantastic.” And then you can make a big deal out of it, right? I just love… I think I love people. I think that’s probably the I love, uh, I love people, and I love trying to help.
Brittany Hodak: Well, I love that, and I love the perspective of franchising is changing lives at scale. My dad was a restaurant manager. He managed a Long John Silver’s when I was a kid, and I got to see firsthand the way he impacted people’s lives, his, his team members, his customers, and, you know, everybody, everybody around him.
So the fact that you’re able to do that on a scale of 23,000 people is, is really special. Now, I wanna know, when you’re dealing with a 40-year-old brand that you have now been, or I guess 41 years old now, um, and you’ve been there obviously for, for the majority of, of that time, [00:20:00] how do you know what parts of the brand are sacred and what parts need to change?
Maybe some desperately need to change, maybe some a little bit need to change, but how do you, how do you know, and how do you balance that to make sure you’re setting this brand up for success for the next 40-something years?
Jeff Hetsel: I will tell you it’s, uh, it’s something I think about all the time. I, I mean, this is not a lifetime appointment. I have to prove myself every day to everybody every day. Like, when I’m driving to work, I’m like, “How hard can I, you know, push? Where do I need to push?” Um, I feel like I’m, I feel like I’m apply- or interviewing for the job almost every day, you know? And one of the things that’s been a hard transition for me, I think, over the last three or four years is I’m, I’m engaged in 2026, but all I think about when I have spare time is 2027 and 2028 and 2029. Um, you know, we lo- rolled [00:21:00] out a loyalty app. I think we got 1.4 million members or thereabout in less than a year, and you keep adding these technology, uh, streams of work into your business. Loyalty’s not a project. “Okay, done. Check. Loyalty’s done.” It’s how do you get it to 2.5 million, 3 million, 6 million? How do you, how do you build that s- uh, sticky connective tissue between you and your guest where they’re living in… You’re, you’re living in their purse, you’re living in their back pocket.
You’re a part of uh, digital footprint. Um, we added three people this year onto our team that have actually AI in their title. Um, it would be very easy for me just to just try to run CiCi’s like it’s always been run, you know, uh, embracing technology is, is unbelievably critical. But I think it’s, you know, technology to me is a, like a trampoline or a platform.
It’s, it’s [00:22:00] something you can take your brand and build it higher on, on, on top of, but it is no substitute. The core values that are Joe’s scent of culture, um, core values of giving people what they want, making the dough fresh every day, um, making the sauce fresh every day, um, that, and jump-the-counter kind of a mentality to take care of guests Operationally, it’s very difficult.
We have 111 franchisees, and, you know, everybody, um, I, I, I hope is out there doing their best every single day. And when we fall short, um, you know, I think it… Trying to get everybody to act like we’re all one big cohesive u-unit and family is, is very, very im-important. the corp– It’s really easy for me.
I can see start, stop, keep of, of CCs. You know, when I was a manager, we had [00:23:00] a fax machine and three AT&T, you know, Princess phones. And, uh, now in the corporate stores, they’re, they’re, they’re being, uh, you know, answered digitally, and that’s not gonna save us money and labor. We didn’t have less people now up there up front running the register. What we did was, I wanted to take away that distraction so the people can focus on the person standing in front of them. Wasn’t about saving money with labor. Wasn’t– We didn’t cut one person over this investment. It was about the phone only ringing two times, guests getting exactly what they wanted in English and Spanish, you know, however they wanna do it. And I want the team member not to have to look at Brittany and her family and go, “Oh, please hold for a moment. I’ve gotta take care of this phone call.” You know, so really, uh, technology eliminates friction. So anywhere friction exists in our business, I’m trying to eliminate it through [00:24:00] technology. That’s, really the benefit of technology, and you better embrace it because there’s everybody else, uh, the world is working on eliminating that friction, so you don’t wanna be last one to that dance.
Brittany Hodak: Well, and I love the idea of thinking about it as eliminating the friction so that your team can better serve people, because I think a lot of times people think of it not as removing friction, but introducing efficiency. Which don’t get me wrong, I love efficiency. I say it all the time, efficiency is my love language.
Like, I love efficiency, but not for efficiency’s sake. It has to be intentional efficiency that is actually making things more efficient for your guest and your team, not just your team or someone in corporate who, again, is like looking at all the wrong KPIs for all the wrong reasons. So I love that focus of we’re gonna have this happen when phone rings so that our people in the store are more intentional when they’re greeting that guest, when they’re asking if there’s a flavor that’s not on bu- the buffet that they want, or they’re helping the, you know, the kid get the, the thing from the prize machine or, you know, whatever, whatever the case may be [00:25:00] in the restaurant.
Although I will say many of your arcades have these, like, automated prize centers, and I don’t know if that is something standard that, you know, the corporate stores and, and the franchisees all order from the same supplier or what, but it is so fun. Like, the digital prize redemption, and I don’t think I’ve seen that anywhere.
And Geoff, we go to a lot of arcades. We, I, I clock a lot of time at, like, arcades and carnivals, and I’ve never seen at the level of how cool the prizes are, how easy it is, that automated experience of prize, like, distribution. And that in and of itself makes it a really cool experience, makes it, like, a really fun part of that journey.
So I think that’s another example of, like, the technology is there. It wasn’t to replace somebody, and it also wasn’t technology for technology’s sake. It was a thoughtful, intentional rollout of, like, how do we make this experience cool? Or at least that’s the way it feels as somebody looking at it from outside eyes as a guest.
Jeff Hetsel: [00:26:00] Yeah. So when, you know, we really have three types of game rooms at CC. Some game rooms, you just go in and you play ’em. Uh, you use a digital card and it’s got your p- points and all those kind of things on it, and you can win stuff right there in each and every game. The next level is what– that you’re des- uh, describing is called the prize hub. So you basically win virtual tickets that are on that card. You go to a prize hub, and you can earn as many points as, as, uh, at whatever level you want to try to get the prize that, you know, you or your family wants to get. And then we have full redemption, which is we have a, a person back there, a real giant variety of things that they can, um, you know, uh, win and earn in the game rooms. So there’s three different levels, and we have more people adopting the second and third level, uh, every day. I think we’ve got seven stores right now that are building expanded game rooms to get to that full redemption level.
Brittany Hodak: I love it.
Jeff Hetsel: here in Dallas, [00:27:00] we, uh, just signed a lease for two thousand more square foot and are doing the exact, same thing.
So it, it’s just been an incredibly important part of our financial model, and our guests have responded wildly about it.
Brittany Hodak: Well, I read somewhere that your system-wide sales were up over 50% in the past five years, which is certainly not the norm in the restaurant business right now. You know, with the economy, with GLP-1s, with work from home sort of disrupting schedules and geography, and all of the things. Like, this is certainly an outlier.
So first of all, congratulations on that, uh, and all of the decisions that you’ve made to fuel that growth. But what I really wanna know is, you know, I don’t wanna call it a turnaround, but like it kind of from the outside in looks like in some ways may have been a turnaround and certainly a boon. And I wanna know what are the things that you think are fueling that, and what do you think both your team mem- members and your guests feel most about that?
Like, what’s continuing to [00:28:00] drive this growth that you’re enjoying?
Jeff Hetsel: Yeah. C- CC’s when the founder had it, and for a very long time operated and executed at a very high level. Um, with different ownership over different periods, that was lost, and I think a lot of, uh, you know, COVID forced a lot of people to turn, their business around, look at their business differently, and get real serious about their financial model and their things like that. uh… I’ve– I hear a lot, they’ll say, “Wow, you’ve done such a great job turning that company around.” And, you know, to me, it’ll be fairly, uh, fully turned around when every franchisee wants to build another store. know, growth really shows you… I don’t like growth for growth’s sake. I certainly don’t want to put stores too close together. I say no that, to more, uh, new sites than I say yes to. Um, maybe I don’t feel like the person’s ready quite yet. Maybe the, site that they’re going to isn’t something we, that I really feel [00:29:00] strongly about, or maybe it’s, I think, too close to another franchisee. So I say no a little, a lot. But I think a turnaround is when all of your franchisees are raving fans and superfans, right? Um, and there were times five years ago where if you’re leading and there’s nobody behind you, you’re going for a walk, right? Um, uh, I had a lot of buy-in by most on a lot of the focus. And the focus, I’ve been very consistent about quality is very important. Um, service is very important. Um, these core tenets are, are gonna be the differentiators now and in the, and in the future. The thing that you used to get is there’s places I used to go that were some of my favorite restaurants that were dirty twenty years ago. Um, or you know, if the food was great, I would go back even if the service wasn’t. but d- not, not anymore. I mean, you, you get one tri– you get one try, you get one shot, you [00:30:00] get one chance to wow somebody, man, you better make the most of it.
You, you really better h- have people that, uh, love the brand and, uh, love serving guests in the dining room because it’s a very, very competitive environment out there. And yes, I’m definitely proud of, uh, what the team has accomplished in being fifty percent and the franchisees get a huge, huge part of that success. Without them, nothing is possible. But at the e– you know, really, to me, at the, at the end of the day, um, I’m focused on tomorrow. Um, how can you be that or more after six years? You know, every time you’re positive for a year, and then it’s two years, and three, and four, and five. You know, being positive, that sixth year is tough.
Seventh’s even tougher. you have to constantly be working, uh, the business, not in it, or you’ll, or you’ll fall behind.[00:31:00]
Brittany Hodak: Absolutely. Well, one of the things that I’m curious about, you mentioned you guys launched a loyalty app recently, and now that you have that first-party data, um, I think it was, like, half a million people joined within the first month, and you said you’re, you know, you’re working on the two million people now.
Is there anything that surprised you in terms of either the loyalty behaviors or what you learned about your most loyal guest that you maybe intuitively had an idea about but, like, couldn’t really prove, or something that just, like, completely took you off guard once you were able to really look at that first-party data on all of the, the loyalty members?
Jeff Hetsel: I, I think the thing that really, um, surprised me is, you know, if someone’s an outsider, doesn’t know anything about CC’s, they’ll think it’s just about kids and families. I’m really, um… It’s, to me, it’s really interesting how wide of a spectrum guests [00:32:00] that we have. how much they use the app, uh, how much value is im- really an important…
That we’re, we’re in the right place doing the right thing. That, that value is still really important to folks right now, maybe now more than ever. And I think the suggestions of things that they believe that we should add, you know, to the app to make it more compelling for them, it’s really a relationship.
Again, I, I, I just f- kinda feel like it’s right now. We’ve been going out less than a year. Uh, you know, we’re, you know, we showed them the first thing. But I think what kind of things are we gonna be doing, um, you know, having a, a, a digital store where they can go buy, you know, CC’s, uh, type things or win CC’s type things.
Uh, game, you know, gamification of the loyalty. Um, and the thing about it is have, think, maybe two loyalty apps in my [00:33:00] phone when we started this journey, and now I’ve got about 50, and I’ve got like 20 that are my favorite all in one area of my phone. And the amount of work and the amount of, uh, time that brands are spending perfecting loyalty uh, staggering, uh, to me. And, um, you know, we’re watching everybody really closely and making sure we don’t, you know, try not to lag too far behind. Since we’re late to the dance, we’re trying not to lag too far behind
Brittany Hodak: Yeah. You know, it really is so fascinating. You mentioned the gamification, and there are a few of the loyalty apps that it really does have, like, a psychological impact when you’re like, “Oh, I only have to check in four more times to reach this next level or unlock this next thing.” Like, it really, for somebody who is a marketer and for somebody who, who understands the principles behind it, I still am, like, somewhat gullible sometimes to, like, wanting to earn that next thing or unlock that next thing.
And, you know, obviously loyalty programs have been in the news a [00:34:00] little bit lately because of the reporter who got all of his data from McDonald’s and was, was looking at all the, you know, crazy things that they were predicting and, and with what degree of confidence they could say. Um, I’m curious, I know you said before value isn’t just about money, and, and the way you think about value and the way you teach everyone within your organization to, to think about value is, is not just from a, from a dollar standpoint.
What are you teaching people in your organization to think about loyalty? Because loyalty also isn’t just the number of times they visited or the, you know, number of CiCi’s reward points they’ve unlocked. I- has the way that you’ve talked about or taught about loyalty changed at all since you guys have rolled out this program and started to see some of those behaviors through that first-party data lens?
Jeff Hetsel: Well, first of all, um, if I could do anything different about loyalty, I would’ve done it f- four years earlier, three year, three years earlier. I think what, um, you know, it, the, you know, it went viral, and we had so many [00:35:00] people sign up, and those people are largely still signed up. I thought it’d be something where people signed up and maybe didn’t use it, but, you know, folks continue to use it, and we’re seeing things that, uh… It’s behavior the way some people, as soon as they get a free buffet, they use it. If somebody earns a free drink, they use it right away. Um, and then there’s other people that are clearly saving up to get a, a PieZilla. You know, they’re, they’re, they’re trying to earn the big… to get the big prize, right?
For some, for some, uh, use. just think people use it lot differently. I think it means a lot. Um, some people have it just for value opportunities. Um, if you sign up for our loyalty app, you get a 3.99 buffet put in your wallet. You get, you know, free points in your wallet, and I was always thinking, “Well, someone’s gonna sign up and just get 3.99, and they’re gonna, just get those points and use those points for a free drink or something.” But it’s, it’s not the case. It’s very [00:36:00] sticky relationship. They’re, It made me feel good our, you know, um, before you, I called it raving fans, and now I call it superfans, but, you know, you really kinda get to see your superfans are. You get a really good insight into who those folks are
Brittany Hodak: Well, and the other thing that I think is such a, such a, you know, accomplishment and like a pat on the back to everyone at the restaurant level is the reason it’s sticky isn’t because people wanna unlock that free drink, it’s because they had a great experience in store and they wanna come back.
Because I d- I don’t care how many 3.99 buffet offers you give to someone, if that first experience is bad or even adequate or average, they are not likely to return. So I think that retention part of it and that from, you know, the adoption of the, the offer to loyalty is a true testament to what is happening in store, right?
Because if the brownies weren’t as good as they were, if there wasn’t as much powdered sugar on everything with the [00:37:00] powdered sugar, if the pizza wasn’t as fresh and didn’t taste as good, then, you know, you’re not gonna be loyal, ’cause there’s, there are plenty of options. Nobody, in most … I shouldn’t say in any city, but I’ve lived a lot of places, and I’ve never had to be loyal to a bad place for lack of finding other pizza options.
Although it’s funny, when my husband and I lived in Manhattan, there was this one pizza place, I won’t out them by name, but it was on the Upper East Side, and it was so good, but Geoff, they were so mean. And the owner was so mean, and he would answer the phone, like there would be some nights I would call and I would be like, “Hi, can I get a large pie delivered to 88th and York?”
And he would say, “No,” and slam the phone down. And like, not as like a schtick. It was like, if they didn’t wanna do a delivery or for whatever reason, they would just like hang up. Or we would go in sometimes and, uh, and the owner’s wife, who was one of the waitresses, we’d sit down and, you know, I, I drink iced tea if, like, if there’s not Dr.
Pepper, which I love that CiCis has Dr. Pepper. Uh, if there’s not Dr. Pepper, I’ll usually have iced tea. And so there would be times we’d go in and my husband and I would ask for an iced [00:38:00] tea, and she’d be like, “I’m not brewing tea for you guys. It’s 8:30.” And they were open till like 11 or whatever. But they’d be like, “If there wasn’t tea, you didn’t get tea.”
That is absolutely the exception because if that pizza wasn’t so delicious and if it wasn’t like part of the joke that we were like … Like, I wouldn’t go by myself. I, I got to the point where I wouldn’t call. I was like, “You have to call. You wanna see if they’ll deliver pizza, you call and ask, ’cause I don’t feel like getting yelled at or hung up on by someone tonight.”
But most brands don’t have the ability to pull that off for very long
Jeff Hetsel: Oh my gosh, no. I, I’ll tell you, in Dallas that won’t work. I mean, there’s so, there are so many opportunities to, to eat, so many new restaurants, so many really good restaurants, so many people doing it right and operating at a high level. You know, if you’re not on your game, it’s just a matter of time. It’s death by pinprick.
You know, every o- every guest that you lose, I mean, it’s just closer to the, your last day of, of being there. You… I, I think what is [00:39:00] going on now is actually really great. It really forces companies like us and others to… You, you, you’re just gonna have to be great at, as table stakes.
Brittany Hodak: Absolutely. Yep
Jeff Hetsel: not the, you know, there, it’s not like the maximum deal.
You really have to go out of your way to wow people, um, and be memorable because you’re in a sea of other opportunity
Brittany Hodak: Absolutely. You know, it’s funny, one of the things that I wrote in my book that I used to say a lot on stage is, when’s the last time you left a three-star review? Like, nobody’s talking about the things that are just average. And Jeff, what you had at your conference last year where I had the pleasure of speaking was one of my favorite examples that I’ve ever seen of a three-star review that was so funny.
Uh, somebody left a review that said, “I was hungry, now I’m not,” which really made me laugh. Um, and but again, that’s, that’s, that’s the outlier. Um, you know, I would love to hear from you, Jeff, what is a brand right now across any, any [00:40:00] vertical that you’re a super fan of? Either a new brand or a brand you loved for a while that you think is doing a lot of stuff right and more people should know about
Jeff Hetsel: So by the way, I didn’t wanna interrupt you, but my favorite thing from your, at the conference, the, the review that you showed us where the, they said like, “The doctor saved my life,” and they gave him three stars, and it’s, “What do I have to do to get the fourth star?
Brittany Hodak: Right. Exactly. Exactly.
Jeff Hetsel: that.
Brittany Hodak: Yep
Jeff Hetsel: kind of funny, uh, one of my favorite that I think’s iconic and I love and I’ve always loved, the first luxury item I bought as a kid, uh, at 14 years old with my, uh, my money a pair of Ray-Bans. loved Ray-Bans, and now even to this day I’ve got Meta glasses. Now they’re prescription Meta glasses that are transitions and all those kind of things. I’ve, I’ve enjoyed so much playing with them and seeing, you know, I was in Europe and having it translate a sign [00:41:00] for you, listening to the radio. I find that the, uh, speakers in it when you’re talking on the phone are significantly better than my like it better than my car. When I’m in meetings I think my team thinks I’ve gone crazy.
They walk by my window and they see me talking and I don’t have any earbuds in or a phone anywhere, and they, they probably think I’m crazy. But I think Ray-Ban’s a great example of, yes, they’ve been this iconic look, and if you, if you’re into Ray-Bans and you like look, um, then you’re a fan. But to take all of that and put it inside of, of here.
I have a friend that wears hearing aids and now he’s got glasses where there’s nothing in your ear but they’re the same temporal, uh, speaker as, uh, Ray-Ban has. And I think it’s just amazing, uh, that brands like, you know, Ray-Ban and, and [00:42:00] many others, uh, continue to be, uh, relevant, um, and be topical and be part of the conversation.
But if someone said, “Hey, no, we’re not gonna invest in this technology,” or, “Hey, we don’t wanna partner up with, know, these other tech companies,” uh, I think they got it right, and I think that, um, know, from going from, uh, giant phones that did a couple of things to you can have it on your watch, and I’m, I wonder where the phone’s gonna be next.
Brittany Hodak: Yeah. Well, and that’s such a great example. And, um, you know, if you still want your, like, classic Wayfarers that are, you know, old school and don’t do anything, you can absolutely buy them. But, you know, to your point, you can get the ones to do everything. And man, how fun it would’ve been to tell 14-year-old Jeff that one day he would be able to get a pair of glasses that look just like the ones he would buy, was buying, that he could listen to music on and make phone calls on, and translate stuff into other languages in real time.
Um, how far we’ve come.
Jeff Hetsel: 14-year-old Jeff wouldn’t have believed it, and I, I’m not sure [00:43:00] 40-year-old Jeff would have believed some of it. But it’s a, a, it’s an amazing time we live, and everything is scaling so fast, and you, you… I don’t know, you just can’t take a break.
Brittany Hodak: Yeah
Jeff Hetsel: you, you just can’t take a break or sleep on technology or change or the things that are going on. The cool thing for me is that, uh, the most important things when I first started, at CiCis and the most important thing to me today is really pretty much the same. you cannot do anything without people. Um, um, you know, technology is not laying people off at our office or the restaurants. Um, and I don’t see how it’s gonna change labor in the restaurants.
You know, I see robots making fries places, AI answering drive-through and all those things, but, you know, ultimately, the restaurant business is a real, a real people business. Um, and if you have great people and you take great care of them, gonna [00:44:00] be in a great spot, and if you don’t, you’re gonna go the way of the dodo bird.
You know, people are still the currency that runs our businesses, and I just, uh… You know, sometimes I do think, uh, folks lose sight of that. Um, you know, growth for growth’s sake and don’t care about people, and I’ll show you the 70 empty restaurants that just closed, right? Um, so it’s, it’s a very, very important part of our business.
Um, and I hope that, um, people in the restaurant business know how much I appreciate them when I go to their restaurants and how much I appreciate the people that, uh, work at ours.
Brittany Hodak: Amen to that. And I have to say, as somebody who has loved this brand for so long, um, I- it is such a privilege to have somebody at the helm who truly does love it and truly does have that point of view and perspective. So as a longtime guest and super fan of the brand, thank you to you and everything all of your 23,000 teammates and, and, and their families are doing to support us.
Uh, Jeff, [00:45:00] as we wrap up, where can people go to learn more about you or get in touch with you if they have questions about CiCi’s?
Jeff Hetsel: Well, you can just email me directly, uh, jhetzel@ccspizza.com or go to our, uh, our CiCi’s website, so cicis.com. So, you know, always glad to, uh, to talk to folks and, uh, help any way I can
Brittany Hodak: Awesome. Well, thanks Jeff, and I’ll see, see you later.
Jeff Hetsel: C- see you later. Thanks a lot, Brittany
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