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Shama Hyder is the CEO of Zen Media, a global marketing and digital PR firm. She’s an award-winning entrepreneur, having been honored by both the White House and The United Nations as one of the top 100 young entrepreneurs in the country. She’s a bestselling author of two books and is widely known as the Zen Master of Marketing. Shama and I discuss the impact of generational shifts on customer loyalty and buying habits, the rise of “dark social,” and the new rules of influence in marketing. Tune in as we unravel the complexities of modern consumer trends and uncover the keys to staying relevant in today’s evolving landscape.
Visit Shama’s website to learn more
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Transcription
Brittany Hodak [00:00:01]:
Hey there. I’m Brittany Hodak, and I wanna welcome you to another episode of the creating superfans podcast. Here’s the deal. If your customers aren’t telling their friends how awesome you are, you’re in trouble. But don’t worry because by the end of this episode, you’ll have some brand new tips for how to turn more of your customers into superfans. Today’s episode features one of my dear friends, Shama Hyder. Shama is the CEO of Zen Media, a global marketing and digital PR firm. And she’s an award winning entrepreneur, having been honored by both the White House and the United Nations as one of the top 100 young entrepreneurs in the country.
Brittany Hodak [00:00:35]:
No big deal. She’s the best selling author of 2 books and is widely known as the zen master of marketing. In our conversation today, we’re gonna talk about the generational shifts in customer loyalty and buying habits, the rise of something called dark social, and the new rules of influence. If you’re concerned about how to stay relevant in today’s ever changing landscape, you don’t wanna miss this episode. Let’s jump right in. Shama, thank you so much for joining me today.
Shama Hyder [00:01:05]:
Brittany, I am always thrilled to join you. Whether it’s a podcast, backstage, on stage, it’s always such a pleasure.
Brittany Hodak [00:01:13]:
You are legitimately one of my favorite people to hang out with and one of my favorite people to talk to because I think you have such a unique perspective on the world. You’ve been on the cutting edge of social media since social media existed. You were one of the first people to write a book that now I think has been, what, like 3, 4 editions. It’s been translated into every language across the world, and you have been at the forefront of every new iteration of technology and marketing for now, like, half our lifetimes, which sounds crazy to say out loud.
Shama Hyder [00:01:46]:
Gosh, Brittany. Yeah. It really does. Thank you for that very kind introduction. Yeah. I mean, I think it helps. I I have a passion for it, and as I tell audiences too, I have a very limited skill set as my kids will attest to. And just one of them.
Shama Hyder [00:02:00]:
Right? And thank god, because it’s, again, a very narrow skill set, is the ability to be able to say what’s what’s next. And I love being able to translate that and and share that. And I think now more than ever, people are asking that. Right? Like, what’s next? How do I make it make sense? And so I try to be that translator and try to say, here’s how to try and make this make sense for you.
Brittany Hodak [00:02:23]:
Well and I think now more than ever, it feels like the world is moving so fast that every leader and every executive has to be constantly asking themselves what’s next because the answer to that question feels like it’s changing all the time.
Shama Hyder [00:02:41]:
Yeah. You’re absolutely right. It is changing, and a big part of what’s keeping leaders up at night, you know, as as I talk to them across the globe, really, is is the same thing. It’s the same question about how do we stay relevant. Right? So all these things are changing. The world is changing. We know that unprecedented has long lost its meaning and and flavor as a word, but that’s that is the reality. And so I think the smart leaders, the good ones, are really asking themselves, how do we stay relevant? How do we not take what we have for granted, lest we go by the way of yesteryear’s brands? And, I mean, we even see this now with very contemporary strong brands having to fight for relevance.
Shama Hyder [00:03:24]:
And so I think that’s really the big question of, yes, there’s all this change, but given this change, how do we stay relevant in this, you know, this ecosystem?
Brittany Hodak [00:03:34]:
Well and it’s such an important question because regardless of the field or the industry that you’re in, this is something that you have to think about. And I was just having lunch with a friend who has 2 teenage daughters, and she was saying the biggest disconnect for her is how her daughters have zero brand loyalty. She was like, you know, I have been wearing Clinique makeup since I was 13 years old. I will never wear anything but Clinique makeup, and my teenage daughters change every single product they buy, they wear, they want at the drop of a hat when they see somebody on TikTok say this is better. And I know last month I told you this was the best thing, but now this is the best thing. And she said, I don’t know if it’s because my daughters don’t consume commercials the way I used to, or because they have this sort of skepticism or distrust of brands. But she said, I just can’t help thinking about what it means for brands as more people, you know, who are coming up Gen z and even younger don’t have the same sort of idea of, oh, this is what a brand relationship looks like or this is what brand loyalty looks like as we all did or our parents or our grandparents did. So I would imagine that is something that is very much keeping leaders up at night.
Brittany Hodak [00:04:44]:
And as someone who has been on the forefront of marketing and PR and advocacy and influence for so long, I would love your take on why that’s changing and what leaders need to be doing now to get ahead of it because it feels like this is not a few isolated instances. This is a trend that is going to continue to develop.
Shama Hyder [00:05:05]:
You’re absolutely right. And and it’s not limited, Brittany, just to even the consumer side of things. Right? We see this play out in the workplace too in in a big way where that yes to your loyalty of you work for the same company for 40 something years and you retire with a Rolex, like, those days are gone. And I think those days were gone even as we as millennials entered the workforce, but now even more so. Right? So I think this concept of there’s certainly, if you see look at Gen z, I think the argument can be made that it’s much more transactional. And so that doesn’t mean that the relationships can’t be formed or loyalty can be created. You just have to work a lot harder for it. And so it’s again, because it’s a very fragmented media landscape, there’s so many reasons why that this is happening.
Shama Hyder [00:05:57]:
But, yes, I mean, I think Gen z and Gen alpha now, which are both our kids are, right, is is really going like, you will say, like, okay. Every generation comes in and they bring their own norms. But gen z is completely different because they’re not they’re not just digital natives. Because millennials, for most of us too, we remember an era without tech being so forefront in, you know, the pre Uber, the pre Amazon, the pre, like, Instacart. We just have a different so we we come from that. We’ve been able to see that bridge. For so many Gen Zers, that’s not the case at all. Right? They’d like, for them, an iPhone was normal.
Shama Hyder [00:06:35]:
ITunes is normal. Spotify is the norm. So, yes, like, I think there’s some major major things that really set this generation apart. And so brands just have to work harder, and that’s the truth. Right? Brands have to work harder. Again, not to just say we are relevant and now we are gonna take that for granted, but every day you have to re earn that that trust. So one thing that I always found really fascinating that, I think people find surprising too is when you look at search patterns, how many searches happen post purchase than do pre purchase? So let’s say someone watches something on TikTok and says, oh my god. I’m gonna go buy this thing that everyone’s talking about or my favorite influencer is, right, talking about.
Shama Hyder [00:07:19]:
And then they go buy that thing. And then what happens is they go search for it to make sure, like, did I make the right choice? And so even that way, when you’re thinking about does the sale, does the experience end at purchase Or does it continue long after? And what does that need to look like? So these are all sort of the sub trends, I would say, right, that Gen z is driving and in a big way. So, yes, I think these generational shifts, they are not just fads. I would go far so far to say they’re not even trends. Right? This is going to be the new way, and I just I don’t I don’t know if corporate America’s ready for for this. You know, one of the stories that I love to share when I when I do my keynotes to explain just the generational differences is this story about me telling one of our telling our team in Slack that I was going to be out of pocket. So, like, I you know, to I what is I know what you mean. Yeah.
Shama Hyder [00:08:23]:
Right? Like, out of pocket just to me, to everyone that I knew, like, means, like, I’m gonna be not available, like, I’m running an errand. And then one of my employees who is Gen z, Alex, she’s lovely. She messaged me and she goes, boss, are you okay? Question mark, question mark, question mark. Like, you know, the emoji with the big eyes to your field. And I was so confused. I was like, yeah. Like, so I’m just running a few, like, few errands. I’m just gonna be out of, you know again, I’m like, I’m gonna be out of pocket.
Shama Hyder [00:08:51]:
Like and so then, like, a minute goes by, I see the little dot dot dot, and then, you know, I was like, did you need something before I’m out? And she goes, boss, do you know what out of pocket means? And I was like, well, I think it means being unavailable or you can’t reach me for a while. Just know being out of pocket means hold my bag. I’m about to lose it for a second. And I not in my wildest dreams. And I thought that that that was the definition for out of pocket. Right? This is like a little micro example of even language and how we communicate and what that means, especially if you’re remote or hybrid or or whatever. So, yeah, I think there’s like, the fun is just about beginning with with Gen z.
Brittany Hodak [00:09:44]:
Ugh. I love that example. And, you know, I think for a while, people were very snarky and dismissive of generational trends. And I think we got a lot of that. Right? Like, it was like, oh, the millennials are coming. The millennials are coming. Like, crack the joke about the millennials, whatever. And as you said, it’s this is not someone just waxing poetic about a group.
Brittany Hodak [00:10:10]:
This is like, life is different now. The future looks different from the past, and you have to embrace it if you want to continue to stay relevant to the people who are now spending money. And so this is something that, as you said, relevancy should be keeping every single business owner and every single leader up at night because it is very important to the future of your ability to make money.
Shama Hyder [00:10:35]:
Yes. And, you know, the generational differences are one part of it. Right? So I think what’s happening is three things are happening happening simultaneously that are really affecting our world. And I just don’t think people talk about them in in silos, but, really, their impact makes a lot of sense when you look at them, layered or in as they converge. So one is these generational differences. Gen z is coming by the end of 2025. Gen z and millennials make up the majority of the workforce, which is just
Brittany Hodak [00:11:05]:
2025. That’s next year. Like, it’s not 10 years from now. Like, next year. Maybe while some of you are listening to this podcast right now in the future, the majority of the people in the workforce are millennial and gen z.
Shama Hyder [00:11:17]:
Yes. Which is massive. Just this year alone, the biggest birthday celebrated in America was 65, Brittany. Like, that that is the you know, more Americans celebrated being 65 than any other number this year. It just shows you kinda where we’re progressing, and I just don’t know if it gets enough attention. Because, again, to your point, it’s very easy to be dismissive and say, but, no, it’s going to impact everything, sales, recruitment, right, marketing. Like, these are your customers. So that’s happening.
Shama Hyder [00:11:45]:
The other thing that’s happening is when in 2014 in 2014 by this journalist in The Atlantic, but now you really see it come full circle because all that means is we consume publicly, but we share privately. So you know this. Your podcast gets way more shares in private communities and Slack channels and, like, you gotta listen to this. Right? This was a great then you do comments because part of this is the novelty of the Internet has worn off. So we’re not leaving comments like we did. We don’t leave the heart emojis on everything, and, you know, it’s just another it’s so fascinating to me. And so this I mean, to me, this everything changes. Right? Because how you market, how you sell, if people aren’t engaging with you.
Shama Hyder [00:12:39]:
So, really, even in marketing, the last 15, 20 years have been the outlier. It’s not the other way around. Where were people like, oh, this is, no, the last 15, 20 years where we were following people online creepily at times and doing all this tracking and doing all this stuff, And people were engaging. So you knew if someone read your post, they left a comment, and it’s so cool. Remember when we used to like every Facebook page there ever existed? Like, anyone could create a page and we’d be like, like, follow because it was fun. And so that novelty has worn off. That means how we look at engagement has to change. The third thing, of course
Brittany Hodak [00:13:18]:
Well, let’s we’re gonna we’re gonna thing, and I know it’s really important, but I wanna I wanna kinda have a conversation here around this because what you said is incredibly important. People are consuming not only in different ways than they used to, but in ways that are difficult to track. And I think a lot of times, leaders fall into this trap of, if you can’t show it to me on a dashboard, it doesn’t exist. Like, I don’t believe it if I can’t see it on a report. And I think over the last 15 to 20 years, we have come to believe that if we can’t see it in an advertising dashboard, it’s not real. And so we over index to the things that we can see and track and measure to the detriment of what, as you just stated, and oftentimes, is a much higher percentage of real activity, of true activity that we can’t see because it’s happening privately. So before we move on to the 3rd point, I would love for you to talk a little bit about maybe some of the mistakes that you’ve seen people make as a result of this and what people can do to not fall victim to looking at things wrong because of the impact of dark social. Like saying, oh, I’m gonna give up on this campaign.
Brittany Hodak [00:14:33]:
This isn’t working, or I can’t put my money here anymore because we’re not tracking it or it’s not working because I think this is a huge problem that, again, in the ecosystem of particularly online advertising, but I think even if if we go back and we look at television advertising, who were the metrics set up to benefit? Yes. The people selling the ads. Right? Like, it’s not for the benefit of the advertisers. It’s look look what we can show you. Look what we can prove you. So let’s talk about that for a little bit. Like, what are some of the mistakes that you see people making, and what can they do to not fall victim to these behaviors called dark social. But, by the way, I think it’s not just about social.
Brittany Hodak [00:15:11]:
I think this is sharing and reviews and everything post purchase that you were talking about. Like, it it it doesn’t just stop at socials, but because we’re talking about that term dark social, talk a little bit about how we can make sure that we’re not making bad decisions because we’re basing it only on what we can see when that might represent a very small size of the pie.
Shama Hyder [00:15:31]:
Absolutely. And so if you think about it this way, right, reputation is created in private. And so that like, who what someone says about you behind your back, that is that is reputation. And so that is now happening more and more where brands can’t see it and they’re being talked about. Sometimes you get a glimpse of that, but more more often than not, you just don’t. Right? So part of this is how can you constantly make sure that you are focusing on the meaningful and not the merely measurable? So it’s not to say data’s bad or you don’t get, you know, to any feedback or or whatnot. It’s just realizing, and it’s just so funny because I do this I ask this question to my audiences, Brittany, when I’m do you know, talking about this, and I really go deep into it about, like, the messy middle and all the research around it and so forth. But just as an example, I I ask folks.
Shama Hyder [00:16:24]:
I say, you know, how many of you scroll through videos on Instagram, TikTok, even LinkedIn right now has launched videos? And majority of the room raises their hands. Like, almost everyone’s they we scroll. And in fact, the average American spends 2 hours a day, by the way, watching vertical videos now. Just astounding. Right? So everyone raised their hand. And then I see, okay. Now how many of you send those videos to the same three people via DMs? And, of course, like, everyone starts laughing there is because it’s true. Right? Like, we we watch all the stuff we consume publicly, But you’re sharing what? With something with your cousin because you’re like, oh, this is cool.
Shama Hyder [00:17:08]:
We were talking about it. Or I might share something with you, Brittany, where I’m like, this, you know, like, check this out. This is really cool. Right? Like, this cool new gadget for speakers or whatever it is. And so, like, those that happens. And so we think part of this is taking a step back and saying, how do you take your marketer hat off, take your leader hat off? Because I think we get so diluted. We we get into our little bubble. It happens to all of us.
Shama Hyder [00:17:32]:
So this is not like a, you know, calling anyone out. We’re we’re all we all can fall victim to it. You take a step back and you say, how do people consume? And so what I recommend is you shadow your customers too. Look at how like, if you could just shadow someone all day and look over their shoulder and look at what they’re looking. Right? The the number one app today that’s used this is, blew my mind, I saw this the other day, is Spotify. They’re, like, they’re in their Spotify. They’re in their, you know, they’re in their channels. If it’s b to b, they might be on LinkedIn and all these things.
Shama Hyder [00:18:05]:
But think about how you are trying to reach that audience. And so these are the things and, like, you know, the other thing we talk about is how fast things move. And so I’m fond of saying, like, content moves at the speed of your feed. And so to that point, all this effort that people put into creating this, like, great campaign, this everything, and then they like, I inevitably, someone asked me this question when I do q and a, and it always is just, like, I love it Because they’ll say, well, in essence, what they’re asking is, do we need to worry about overexposure? Like, are we gonna annoy our people if they see this too much? And I’m like, I would love that for you.
Brittany Hodak [00:18:47]:
Well, let me know if that ever happens, because that has never happened once.
Shama Hyder [00:18:51]:
I would love that. And, honestly, if Taylor Swift, you’re listening to Brittany’s podcast, maybe, like, we should talk. Like, that’s maybe over thing for you. But for anybody who’s listening or watching that is not miss Taylor Swift, it does not apply. Right? Like, there’s no amount that you can do that you like, you are fighting against a deluge of content and brands and their personal you know, their networks and and all these all these things. And so I think those are just, like, all, again, nuances of this idea. And to your you made a great point, Brittany. This is like talk about this we talk about this all day, is who benefits? Who’s benefited in the last 15 years by calling these metrics vanity metrics? Oh, we’ll give you the real deal.
Shama Hyder [00:19:37]:
We’ll tell you the actual metrics that matter. Right? It’s $1,000,000,000,000 ad business with, by the way, multibillion,000,000 in ad fraud. So the but, like, they’ve they’ve benefited from this because to your point, oh, you need to see it on a dashboard? Sure. But then what does that do do for your team? They are now only going to because that’s what you reward. They’re only gonna give you things that look good on a dashboard whether they make sense or not. Right? So this is, like, again, we’re seeing that pushback too in b to b where it’s like, look at all these leads we have, these MQLs. But now sales can’t close them. Right? So why can’t we close them if they were great leads where they weren’t great leads? But you wanted to see that number go up.
Shama Hyder [00:20:19]:
So leads, there you go.
Brittany Hodak [00:20:21]:
Leads magically. It’s raining leads from the sky.
Shama Hyder [00:20:24]:
Yes. I mean and an email address is not a lead. Right? So I think, like, sure, back in, like, 99, an email address might have it’s just not a lead anymore. All you have is someone’s contact information. It does not mean that they’re engaged or they’re ready to buy. Like, if you look at so much research that’s being done now from, you know, LinkedIn b to b Institute across the board, All every research document that I’ve seen, all the studies I’ve seen show that, like, a buyer is 56% on the low side to 90% on the high side through their buying process before they even talk to you. Like, they’ve already made up their mind. They already know.
Shama Hyder [00:21:04]:
So you have to influence them before you even get a chance to close them. It’s very different rules that we’re playing by today than we did, gosh, even 5 years ago.
Brittany Hodak [00:21:15]:
Yeah. Well and, you know, I one of my favorite pieces of research, which comes from a company called Mention Me. They’re an advocacy and referral marketing company, and they track, a lot of online sales, but but but not all just b to c online. And somebody who comes to you via a referral not only is going to have nearly double the lifetime value as someone who came to you via an ad, but they are 5 times more likely to refer another customer to you.
Shama Hyder [00:21:44]:
I totally believe that.
Brittany Hodak [00:21:47]:
They’re worth double and they are 5 times more likely to refer another customer in the future. So the best thing that you can do to influence your future customers, those prospects, is not a diluage of ads and trying to to reach them. It’s to take a really take really good care of the customers that you do have so that they tell their friends who then come to you. So I think the entire paradigm has shifted as you as you said, and it’s not it’s not just about the behaviors that we can see and can’t see, it’s about recognizing the obligation that we have to take really great care of our customers post sale, post purchase, when, as you said, many of those searches are happening anyway because people are starting to freak out saying, did I make the right decision or not? What do I do now or not? Do I know how to use this thing or not? And if you can really nurture those people, even though they’ve already given you their money, they’re more likely to give you more of their money and also tell their friends to give you money as well. Plus it’s the right
Shama Hyder [00:22:45]:
to do. So there’s that. You know, top of mind. So you this research that I’m talking about that Google did around the messy middle just validates so much of what you’re saying too, Brittany, because they looked at how do people make purchasing decisions, which doesn’t happen in a funnel, by the way. Like, that’s, you know, very dated theory that nobody follows that linear path. Right? It’s much more it’s messy. That’s why it’s called a messy middle. People buy kind of in this.
Shama Hyder [00:23:08]:
And I I walk, you know, this, like, cool image that I walk people through so they understand it. But the miasma around it, the thing that impacts it most is exposure. The more someone sees your brand, the more they’re exposed exposed to it, the more they trust it. Right? So really, like, even the referral thing, it’s trust. Because if you tell me, Brittany, something’s great, I’m gonna it’s, like, 10 x more important than someone else saying that because I trust you. And so now I’ve even like, right, based on that trust, I trust whatever you’re recommending. And so, yeah, I think it’s very important to and I know you talk about this too. Like, when you get your customers, how can you engage them to attract new customers? Like, how you close that loop out knowing that they’re not gonna talk about whatever.
Shama Hyder [00:23:52]:
And the more mundane it is that you do, the less you’re likely to see that. Right? So let’s say that you are e. F. Beauty and you’re you’ve got this, like, new eye shadow. Yes. I may tag my friend Brittany in it because I think she would look great in it, right, or or whatnot. But if you are a cybersecurity firm and you’ve just put out a white paper, if you were a b to b SaaS company and work tech, do you think I’m not doing that? Like, that’s not how people buy. Right? Like, the you’re and even then, even with the e l f examples, the dark social, more likely someone’s gonna send it in DMs.
Shama Hyder [00:24:25]:
They’re like just the public engagement, you can see that if something is very, politicized, if it right? If it really creates a lot of emotion, but that emotion doesn’t always translate to business outcomes and what you’re trying to accomplish. So, yeah, I just I think the rules. Right? So a lot of what I talk about is what I call this is new rules of influence because that’s what this is. It’s new rules of influencing these gen z, millennials, but even, like, just in general. Right? How the ecosystem of buying has changed. I don’t think you have to be a millennial or Gen z to, get one of the questions I ask the audience is, like, how many of you legitimately sigh when, you know, your Amazon package cannot get there later today or next day? Right? And it’s like our sense of our expectations have greatly moved and changed in the last, again, last 5 years. So and they’re gonna continue to change. And that’s why this question around how do we stay relevant and why it’s so important, not just that you’re asking this at the leadership level, but that you’re empowering your people at every level to be asking this question of themselves.
Brittany Hodak [00:25:38]:
Yeah. So true. Alright. You told us there are 3 things that are happening that most people look at in silos, but are actually part of the same puzzle. So we know the first piece of that is this generational shift that’s happening in the workforce, but also in the world in general and consumers. We know the second thing that’s happening is this dark social. Many of us have been conditioned to think what we see is the whole story when in fact it absolutely is not. What’s the 3rd piece of this puzzle? And the one that probably gets the most attention in the press right now, but without the context of those other 2 is just part of the story that’s gonna cause people to maybe not make the most informed decisions for their companies and their futures.
Shama Hyder [00:26:22]:
Yes. And it’s a small thing called AI. Right?
Brittany Hodak [00:26:25]:
That’s a big part of that. AI, is that does that stand for something? What is what is AI?
Shama Hyder [00:26:31]:
Yes. Artificial intelligence. Maybe you you’ve heard of it, read an article or 2. Yeah. Synonymous with chat gbt today too. You know, AI is fascinating because I really think it is going to be the interface with which we interact with the world. So Bill Gates has famously said that there’s only 2 things in tech that have excited him, like, truly excited him. The first was GUI and the second is AI.
Shama Hyder [00:27:02]:
So the first is the graphical user interface, meaning when you go when you look at your desktop, when you look at your screen, you see visual icons. When you open your iPhone or your Android phone, you have you get the experience of, like, there’s a certain visual satisfying experience for the end user. That is not the case behind the scenes. Right? There’s a lot of craziness. Now AI, I think, is going to become that interface with which we interact with the world. And so, you know, very simple examples. As a mom, Brittany, you’ll appreciate this. At night, when I you know, my kid my son loves trains, as you know.
Shama Hyder [00:27:39]:
Archer is obsessed with trains. He’ll be 5 years old soon. And so mommy has to come up with train stories every night. And so what I do is I rely on AI to be like, help me come up with this story. And, you know, he’s very specific about the trains he likes and, you know, Union Pacific’s big boy 4014, a sustained train. And then what you do is incorporate, like, maybe something that happened that day. Like, maybe we were not so kind to her sister and we should do better. So I was, like, incorporate this moral to be kind to your sister and voila.
Shama Hyder [00:28:11]:
Right? So every night, there’s a brand new story about trains and kindness and whatnot. So, like, it’s amazing how that’s changed our kinda day to day like, that’s that’s how I’m using it, you know, even as as a mom, as a as a consumer. And then I think about it for work. Gosh. I mean, there’s just so many amazing ways in which we’ve implemented the company, at Zen Media that we’re using it today. But also just from a perspective of, like, imagine waking up and all your emails are already drafted because 80% of what we answer, we’ve answered before. Right? Some, like think about what you and I answer a lot, Bernie, is, like, someone asking for our usual, like, hey. You’re speaking.
Shama Hyder [00:28:53]:
We’re excited. Headshots, bio, whatnot. It’s already there. If I can learn all this and draft all this and you just go back and double check and hit send, that has cut down so much busy work, freeing us up to be more strategic and creative and and do all these things. And so I think AI is very, gosh, so underestimated. And what I see happening right now across the board is companies are following following following following following and following on 2 separate sides of this. Either they are vastly underestimating AI and they’re not touching it or they’re not doing much with it. They’re hoping, like, if they close their eyes, it goes away kinda like they did with the Internet or social media.
Shama Hyder [00:29:37]:
And then you have companies that are overestimating the impact, and they’re wiping out entire departments because they think, oh, AI will be able to do this. And I’m like, what makes you think if you couldn’t manage human beings doing this, who who understand Nuance or whatnot, you’re now gonna get rid of all of this and just have AI do it? So there that’s a big, you know and, again, it opens up all these if there’s so much content, for the longest time, we talked about how content marketing is amazing and you need more content. But if AI can create content at scale, what becomes even more important is your point of view and how do you differentiate. Again, going back to part of the new rules of influence that I talk about in creating that and and not, you know, fighting irrelevance every single day is thinking about what is your unique point of view, because you’re gonna need 1. And so these are like so when I talk about AI, it’s not like, let’s talk about the technical aspects and, you know, what are the LLMs and so forth. My lens is, again, how do we put this in perspective for we stay relevant, how we engage with customers, how we integrate this to make our lives easier, our workflows easier. So that’s anyway, so that’s like, AI is obviously here. It’s here to stay.
Shama Hyder [00:30:54]:
It will evolve considerably. But, you know, I’m just I’m again, I’m also surprised. I speak to leaders across industries, and I ask, how many of you have played with chat gpt? Almost everyone raises their hand. Right? At some point, they’ve done it. But when I ask how many of you use it daily, almost all the hands go down, Brittany. Like and that’s the part that concerns me is because to be able to succeed in this very near here future, we have to keep engaging. We have to keep playing. And so that’s always my call to action too is engage, play, because this this is the world that we’re gonna live in.
Shama Hyder [00:31:31]:
And the more you do it, the better you get, the more comfortable you’re gonna be.
Brittany Hodak [00:31:36]:
Absolutely. And it is, I think, imperative for anybody who’s listening to this right now that is not comfortable using AI. That is the most important thing that you can do to future proof yourself. Because you know who plays with AI every single day? My 6 year old.
Shama Hyder [00:31:54]:
Mhmm.
Brittany Hodak [00:31:54]:
He loves to ask chat gbt to draw pictures based on his input, to write jokes for him, to come up with new LEGO creations for him, to help him code in Minecraft. Like, it is it is just an accepted part. Even my 4 year old uses, voice all the time. Right? Like, we’ll ask Alexa for anything, and we’ll get upset if he can’t search for the right thing using the right words on the Internet. But his default is he finds a bug outside. Mom, I need the app to see what kind of bug this is. I’m gonna scan it and see what kind of bug it is. And then has me read him everything it says about that bug from the app if he’s not able to have it read out loud to him with the voice button.
Brittany Hodak [00:32:38]:
I mean, it is imperative because you’re right. The way we all engage with the world is different forever now. And the amount that our lives changed when we got the Internet and when we got cell phones, I think, is going to pale in comparison to how different our lives are going to look 5 and maybe even 3 years from now because we’re engaging with AI.
Shama Hyder [00:33:02]:
100%, Brittany. Yeah. 100%. And so the thing that I think you really have to think about is if you’re not asking these questions and you’re not engaging your teams to ask these questions and and being proactive about all these factors, your competitors are. Yeah. And so that’s really why this is so important. Right? Is because if you lose that battle and no one is immune I mean, you see the biggest brands. Right? Empires fall.
Shama Hyder [00:33:28]:
There’s no there’s no immunity except this constant really just striving of how do we stay relevant, how and and understanding. Like, first is you have to understand what’s happening in the world, how people are buying, how people are engaging, how people are making these decisions. And then you’ve gotta figure out, okay, what does this mean for me? How do I translate this? And then how do we execute on this?
Brittany Hodak [00:33:51]:
So the most relevant CEOs in the world right now who understand these three forces that are working together in tandem, what are they doing to stay relevant? Talk to me a little bit about how their day looks different from CEOs that are still operating their company, maybe like it’s 5, 10, 15 years ago.
Shama Hyder [00:34:10]:
Yeah. Great question. So part of this is they are they’re consuming content like this. Right? And so I think alone, just like if you were listening, I already feel good about your chances because you are proactively looking at how many I know so many leaders too today that go through their day sort of blindfolded. You know, they do the same things over and over, and they’re not exposing themselves to fresh content, fresh ideas. Like, you you’ve gotta be you have to put yourself out there. And so part of this is it starts with you as a leader. Are you staying relevant? Are you reading the right books? Are you listening to the right things? If you’re listening to this, I feel good about you.
Shama Hyder [00:34:48]:
Share this with a friend, a colleague, someone you think could use this because it really is. It’s sort of that wake up call. The other part that I see is they are empowering their teams with this knowledge. They’re thinking about, okay. It’s not just important for me to think about how we’re gonna stay relevant. It’s important for every layer level. My VPs, are they asking these questions? Right? And then asking yourself the the really tough question about what are we rewarding? What are be what are we incentivizing? Because to kind of bring in a full circle if you’re incentivizing only the things that look good on a dashboard because that’s important. What is the trade off? And you love to ask yourself that.
Shama Hyder [00:35:28]:
Right? I mean, so I think being a leader is constant balance of short term gains, long term. Like, you’re you’re just playing that you’re playing that game. But it’s just very easy to get into your day to day and and not focus on these things. So, yeah, that’s that’s what I see smart leaders doing. I think they’re asking the questions. I think they’re engaging. They’re empowering their teams to also have a playful attitude about this. Look at it.
Shama Hyder [00:35:54]:
I know when I’m brought in by leaders around the world, you know, from professional services to different areas, what they’re trying to do is get their individual, right, contributors, all their team members to start thinking differently. And that’s really what it is. Once you start thinking differently, your outlook changes. All of a sudden, you can spot that opportunity. You see that trend, and you’re like, we should do this. You become more a little bit more adventurous. You become a little bit more courageous because that’s also what’s needed to cut through the noises. You’ve gotta have a little adventure.
Shama Hyder [00:36:25]:
You’ve gotta have a little courage in your bones and your, you know, and you’ve gotta be you’ve gotta be you’ve got you have to be able to enable your team and empower them to do that as well so they understand. And the really, really good ones make it about the individuals, meaning that everything that we’re sharing today and when I talk to, I tell my audiences, they don’t think about this just in, like, the brand that you’re representing here. You know, if you’re sitting here and I’m talking to Marriott and I’m talking to Disney, whatever. This isn’t just about the brand. It’s about you as an individual because everything we’ve talked about, you and I, Brittany here on this this podcast today, applies at your career level. It totally applies at the micro level. How are you staying relevant in your role, in your career trajectory, in you know, do you have that lens? Because that’s also what differentiates leaders from not leaders and has nothing to do with your title. It’s simply that lens and being able to look at the world in in that way.
Brittany Hodak [00:37:21]:
So true. So, alright, as we wrap up, I wanna ask you, what is an app or a tool that you are a super fan of? It can be AI or it can be something AI adjacent that you recommend everybody play with if they’re not already.
Shama Hyder [00:37:35]:
Gosh. I have so many. And so because I always like, my part of my job is trying things and making sure that we test them out. I’m a big fan of of Voma. We’re using that right now. It is a AI, enabled transcription, so it takes notes in all our meetings. But the nice thing is we have that integrated with, our contact management system. We have that integrated into our project management system, so it automatically can create tickets based on what it’s hearing.
Shama Hyder [00:38:06]:
And so, like, to me, that’s the stuff that I get excited about. It’s like, great. One more way to create some operational efficiency. So I think that’s the I I’ll give you, like, our macro favorite tool right now as a team, which is Avoma.
Brittany Hodak [00:38:19]:
I love it. Alright. Well, Shaba, where can people find more from you and connect with you?
Shama Hyder [00:38:24]:
Well, they can always harass you, Brittany, and you can
Brittany Hodak [00:38:27]:
I’ll do it. You have and give me the password, and I’ll send you our cell phone number.
Shama Hyder [00:38:33]:
Of course. You can find me at, shemaheider.com. That’s my website. And, LinkedIn is generally where I like to play, but you can find me on any social network. And if you if you do if you’re listening, watching, and you connect with me on LinkedIn, please put a note in there that you heard me on Brittany’s podcast because I literally have, like, 6,000 requests right now, and so I I can’t I can’t go through each one. So I quickly glance. And if I see, like, someone’s like, oh, I heard you speak or we connected, then I’m much more likely to act and and accept that that connection.
Brittany Hodak [00:39:07]:
So you get a fast pass. Everybody else is gonna have to wait for you to find the right AI to, separate.
Shama Hyder [00:39:13]:
I I’m waiting for that. Yes.
Brittany Hodak [00:39:15]:
Yes. Well, thank you so much for coming. Come back and hang out anytime.
Shama Hyder [00:39:19]:
I would love to. Thanks, Brittany.
Brittany Hodak [00:39:21]:
That’s it for today’s episode. Please help me out by leaving a review for the show or sharing it with a friend. Until next time, remember, don’t settle for standard. Be super.
