Creating Superfans Podcast Episode 212: Stacy Sherman

Brittany Hodak [00:00:02]:

Hello, and welcome to the Creating Superfans podcast where you learn how to turn your customers and employees into superfans. I’m your host, Brittany Hodak, and I’m a speaker, author, and entrepreneur obsessed with all things customer experience. Here’s the thing. We’re living in an experienced economy right now, and regardless of the size or age of your company or even the products or services you’re selling, one thing’s for sure. If your customers aren’t telling their friends about you, you’re in trouble. If you wanna create super fans, being great is no longer good enough. You’ve got to be super. This is the show that teaches you how.

Brittany Hodak [00:00:47]:

I’m thrilled to be joined today by Stacy Sherman. She’s an award winning author, advisor, speaker, and podcaster focused on doing customer experiences right. She’s held leadership roles at companies including Verizon, Wilton brands, and AT and T. Today, we’ll talk about the impact a job title can have on an employee’s performance, how you can teach empathy to your team and the importance of recognizing and celebrating your customers and employees’ birthdays. And as a special bonus, she’s going to give us some elevator safety tips you don’t want to miss. Before we dive in, I want to thank the sponsor of today’s episode.

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Stacy, thank you so much for joining me today.

Stacy Sherman [00:02:25]:

Thank you. I’m so happy to be here, and I got to really spend time with you in person, which makes this extra just special.

Brittany Hodak [00:02:33]:

Yes. This is gonna be such a great episode. I always love talking to people who think customers experience is as fun and as exciting as an And as important as I do, so I know this is gonna be a great episode. So let’s jump in right off the bat on the CX. Your brand is all about, as you say, doing CX right.

Brittany Hodak [00:02:54]:

So I would love for you to tell me In a couple of sentences, what does it mean to you for a brand to do CX right?

Stacy Sherman [00:03:03]:

Yes. So So many brands are not doing it right, and and it’s really about getting the basics right. What we’re talking about is intentionally Designing a customer experience from how they learn and buy and get and use and pay and get service, customer care, And intentionally designing that internally, breaking the silos, bringing everyone together to design it. But here’s the magic. Can’t skip this step is actually validate it with real customers and make sure that what you designed is really what they want and that you’re meeting their needs and you you adjust that. So it’s That’s the fastest answer I can say about really looking at it in totality.

Brittany Hodak [00:03:49]:

I love it. I think so many companies forget about that customer focus, like, having that customer centricity to say, we’ve gotta test this. We’ve gotta talk to people. We’ve gotta make sure we’re doing what people want.

Stacy Sherman [00:04:02]:

Yeah. And I think the issue again, I’ve worked in a lot of different brands and industries, and what happens is They’re so focused on speed over quality. We’ve gotta get this product launch, and here are, you know, people like me come along and say, wait, wait, wait. We gotta get that feedback before we go to market, and they’re like, sorry. We don’t have time. Like, what do you mean you don’t have time? You have to have time. It it yeah. No.

Stacy Sherman [00:04:27]:

Don’t get me started.

Brittany Hodak [00:04:28]:

Yes. You have to have Because something that could be a $10 problem today might be a $10,000,000 problem if you let it go unchecked for the next, you know, several months or years or or whatever it may be.

Stacy Sherman [00:04:40]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Brittany Hodak [00:04:42]:

Now I’ve been dying to ask you this question, Stacey. So I tell a story in my book and when I speak about an elevator, and I don’t know if you’ve heard this story. I’ll quickly tell it, for for anybody listening who hasn’t heard it. But when I visited LEGOLAND Resort in Florida for the time. My kids’ favorite part of the entire resort was an elevator, and it was a disco dance party. In that elevator, There was a mirror ball. There were lights. Music would play every time the doors closed.

There were floor to ceiling decals. Like, it was a party, And my kids loved that dance party elevator as they called it. And we rode that elevator, like, probably a dozen times in the 1st couple of days that we were at that resort. And it was not until the 3rd day that I realized that was without a doubt The slowest elevator I have ever been on in my life. Like, literally, the slowest. Like, the whole song Dancing Queen would play between the lobby and the 5th floor. It just took forever. And because it was a small elevator, it was also a long wait to get onto the elevator because it was one family at a time.

So you are waiting a really long time, and then you are on this elevator, and it took forever to get up and down. In our case, we were we were staying on the top floor, which was the 5th floor. And the reason that I love to tell that story is because the point that I make is right now in your business, I promise There are slow elevators. There are things that could feel painful to your customer. And instead of just throwing your hands up in the air and saying, well, I can’t fix the elevator. I can’t make it go faster. I can’t replace the elevator. You can bring creativity and intentionality to that elevator, whatever it may be, and say, how can I make it feel faster, or how can I reframe this experience? How can I make it feel different? And because LEGOLAND did that, they took what would have been a major pain point and turned it into a moment of delight that my kids adored that they talked about for months after we left the resort.

That was the first thing they wanted to do when we got back to LEGOLAND 10 months or whatever it was later when we went back to visit again. And the reason I am excited to share this story with you is because you were the chief experience officer or head of customer experience For an elevator corporation, for Schindler Elevators. Yes?

Stacy Sherman [00:07:11]:

Yes. I did lead I did lead CX and built that department. And there is so much to say to elevators. It is much more than a thing that goes up and down.

Brittany Hodak [00:07:23]:

And employees. About it. I am so excited to talk about all things elevators because I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who worked in the elevator industry. And as someone who uses that analogy for CX, you’re the perfect person to deconstruct this. So, Alright. Let’s talk about the experience of elevators, Stacey. What you got?

Stacy Sherman [00:07:42]:

Oh, gosh. Alright. I gotta get very meticulous because there’s a lot of angles here. And I never imagined I’d be in the elevator industry, so let me start there. But, wow, is it really a great experience? So a couple things. 1, Let’s talk about the people that work at an elevator, technicians, mechanics. They call them old salt salty dogs. I mean, I learned this whole language in the elevator speak.

Stacy Sherman [00:08:09]:

And what’s so important is how How important those people are, the mechanics who are so good at their trade, but they don’t actually realize they deliver a customer experience. On the job, fixing elevators, passing people in hospitals and and airports, etcetera. So what’s really Fascinating and part of what my job was is to go meet with the mechanics and help them understand that they are the frontline And change their behaviors as small as make sure that you’re professionally dressed, that you are saying hello, you check-in, you check out. What a difference that makes to even the property manager. Hello. I’m here. Right? So point 1. Point 2, customer service.

So a lot of times, Now this is a global company, 5 continents. It is normal that people might get stuck in an elevator. Okay. Now this is where I’m calling out AI that not all things need to Not all things belong with an AI response. So imagine you are claustrophobic, Me in an elevator, and it’s stuck. Now, you are afraid. You’re fearful. You’re trying to keep it together.

So you press the button in the elevator for help. Do you want an AI to say, don’t worry. Someone will come. Can’t tell you when. Or do you want a human being who’s trained in empathy, Who says to you, don’t worry. I’m here. I’m here with you, and tells you the expected time of arrival of the to help get you out, etcetera, etcetera. So there’s so much we can unpack even just on customer service and training those agents to help the individual.

Okay. That’s 2. 3, employees n a n mechanics, etcetera, and customers. A big topic, when I was at Verizon, the big deal was getting up at 3 in the morning to launch an iconic phone and making sure that it didn’t disrupt the website. Okay. This takes that to a whole another level because here, our entire livelihood was safety, And people died. Literally died frequently because and these are riders and mechanics Because they get distracted, they’re on their phone, they trip, their shoelace gets caught, so many cases. So on our laptops, we actually had No.

Not one more. And so you talk about safety as the mantra and then Eventually became psychological safety, not just physical safety, but just a culture That is tied to CX. A pause because there’s so many stories, but those are just 3.

Brittany Hodak [00:11:28]:

Yeah. Well so I I wanna I wanna dig into that last one, that safety part, because I think Anytime you’re in an industry where it’s physical safety, but even psychological safety of your employees, that’s a huge part of it. Right? That’s I mean, going all the way back to Maslow. Like, we’ve gotta worry about that component if we want our employees to be able to function at a high level. But let’s just talk about the rider for a minute. Do you have elevator safety tips? Like, what are some things that you just as a person did not know? And then once you started working at the corporation, you were like, how did I not know this? Because I feel like this is a Great opportunity to pause for a little elevator safety PSA.

Stacy Sherman [00:12:11]:

Love that. And by the way, at the company, every meeting we had, That’s how we started. Every agenda, a safety moment. So, oh, boy, you’re bringing me back, and

Brittany Hodak [00:12:23]:

it’s so cruel. Used the word Frequently. You said people die frequently, which which which gave me pause and made me think maybe I need to take this advantage to learn some elevator safety tips. So, Elevator Sophie with Stacy Sherman.

Stacy Sherman [00:12:38]:

So the one that stands out that we all do and now I don’t Is the elevator’s about to close and we put our hand out to make it open again? You know, to stop it from closing. Do not do that. Do not do that. People have lost limbs, And you think that you’re going to that the elevator’s gonna bounce back open, but there’s many cases it doesn’t. So that’s just a simple one. With escalators and boy, gosh. And if you think about in the malls, how Kids are riding on the railway, and it’s like a a a fun free ride and, oh, so many accidents. Your shoelace, elevator and escalator, actually, your shoelace, the slightest little shoelace dangling, you will break bones.

Stacy Sherman [00:13:33]:

And it’s just 1 one small catch on on some of the gadgets there. I mean, You can literally you can really get hurt. So these are not toys, and We did. We had to go through elevator safety, and every meeting starts with safety moments. But, of course, not but and, You know, Stacy Sherman comes along and says, hey, safety team. When you’re having your safety moments at all your meetings, and these were, like, across all of our sales offices too, Can we add in some CX moments on the agenda? So whoever’s listening, You know, when you have a mission going on in your company, like safety in this case, connect to that team And get your CX topic. It could be like, hey. Let’s review a survey from a customer and problem solve internally.

Stacy Sherman [00:14:32]:

What did you hear? So that was something that was successful.

Brittany Hodak [00:14:38]:

Awesome. Well, speaking of the things that you can do internally, I know you are a huge proponent of creating different job titles that really align any employee, but particularly a customer facing employee’s purpose with what it is that they’re doing to earn their paycheck. So I would love for you to talk a little bit about your philosophy here and share some tips around how people can bring more intentionality to their team members’ titles in a way that’s going to really Remind that team member, what it is that that they’re there to to help achieve for your customers.

Stacy Sherman [00:15:14]:

Yeah. So I’m gonna put on my BPO hat that I worked at. And what was really cool

Brittany Hodak [00:15:21]:

What’s a BPO or

Stacy Sherman [00:15:26]:

sourcing. So these are companies that where, let’s say, a brand, an enterprise, they don’t wanna build a call center, Or they need to augment. A lot of retailers do this during the Christmas time. They don’t have enough people on staff to answer all the calls and chats, So they’ll outsource and augment their contact center to this business processing. So I was managing thousands and thousands of agents and responsible agent experience to deliver customer experience. And first of all, for anyone doing that, I do recommend you ask People, what do you want to be called? Engage them in the conversation. I’ve seen everything from Customer experience champions to some I’ve seen even, chief experience officers because It took away the clout and elevated, titles and actually made everybody own the experience, like, as if this is your company, care about it. There’s obviously customer service rep, but that’s so archaic.

Stacy Sherman [00:16:36]:

And I think that if you ignite people to take the ownership. Whatever words you decide, you will get that in the and the customer will hear the smile on the phone. Yeah.

Brittany Hodak [00:16:48]:

And it means a lot. Right? I mean, it’s it’s one of those things that for anybody listening to this show, every single person on your team will feel pride in a title that is meaningful to them and is aligned with not only what their purpose of the organization is, but also what they aspire to do. I mean, I think this is going back to sort of the the psychological side. Right? Like, if somebody feels excited about That either literal or metaphorical name tag that they get to put on and wear every day, that’s that’s a really important part of their employee experience.

Stacy Sherman [00:17:23]:

Absolutely. And, again, it transfers over to the customer, the rider. However you define a customer, They feel like they see it. So it does start inside. One of the mistakes that I often see, though, is that They’ve got the culture. They’ve got the champions, but then they forget to actually Get the customer lens. They’re so internal focused that they forget about the end user, and so you Can’t replace the customer view and voice with the internal. You’ve gotta marry both.

Brittany Hodak [00:18:01]:

So for somebody who’s like, wow. I’ve never Thought about a voice of customer program. I have never put intentionality behind collecting, in a formalized way my customers’ opinions. What would you say to somebody who’s maybe for the first time thinking about how to integrate voice of customer into their decision making?

Stacy Sherman [00:18:21]:

Congratulations for even asking the question, I would say, to them because that is so important. It’s your game changer. One of the things I recommend is you do, you know, crawl, walk, run, and you start small. So that might mean that you have a role Who actually, before you can afford automation and these sophisticated tools, take a person or some people And actually aggregate the conversations, the structured and unstructured feedback From people, prospects and customers. So what are they saying on social media? What are they saying in customer service conversations and chat logs? What are the surveys saying? There’s so many, components. Even on your website, a contact form, You aggregate, you consolidate, and you prioritize the pain points and the happy points, and then you take action on them and you share them internally. Too often, people will just focus on a survey, or they’ll focus on one point of the journey, and that’s why I say you gotta look at it holistically from all these sources.

Brittany Hodak [00:19:33]:

I know sometimes people will say to me, oh, we don’t have any customer feedback. And I’m like, yes. Yes. You do. You have as much customer feedback as you have customers. You may not Be paying attention to it, but it is out there, in many cases, publicly accessible via search.

Stacy Sherman [00:19:48]:

Yes. Which Which let’s we won’t have time to go into this, but because it’s so public, that’s where customer service comes in. Because If you just watch Twitter and people name brands and say how disappointed they are, the brand has an opportunity to respond to that, and people are watching that.

Brittany Hodak [00:20:08]:

Yes. Yeah. Yes.

Stacy Sherman [00:20:08]:

Can’t ignore it.

Brittany Hodak [00:20:09]:

Recovery, especially on Twitter. I feel like that’s one of the main reasons the platform exists, right, is to is to get real time feedback from brands who have wronged you in some way.

Stacy Sherman [00:20:19]:

Yes. Or x, whatever we call it now.

Brittany Hodak [00:20:22]:

I’m gonna I’m gonna still I’m gonna still go with I think. So one of the things that you have done several times throughout your career is help people build out their teams, whether it’s internally or externally, to be in those customer experience and customer service roles. So what are some of the tips that you have, or what are some of the traits that you recommend people look for when building out their own customer service or customer experience team.

Stacy Sherman [00:20:51]:

Well, first of all, you have to understand and be trained and know about customer experience, best practices, and principles. Here’s why I say that. I remember interviewing someone, and they wanted to win me over. And they were using all this terminology. And I remember this person was using NPS, And I and I felt like, gosh. Are you just using NPS net promoter score just to show that you know what you’re Talking about let me play with this. And so I started to probe, and the numbers that were given to me really proved that they had no idea what What NPS was even. So you really have to be able to hire and train and recruit people that really understand it and not, like, Fake terminology.

Stacy Sherman [00:21:47]:

So many people are claiming to be customer service, customer experience, but they really are just using it as a name and checking a box. So definitely make sure you test for it and make sure that when you’re interviewing up front, you’re really testing the knowledge. Also, you wanna make sure that you can test for what did they do when problems exist, How did they handle that? In any role they were in, because we all own customer experience. Even finance people own customer experience. So really test for how do they solve the problems, listen out for empathy, listen out for soft skills, listen out for the hard skills, and Make sure that you are really identifying that authenticity, and people are moldable. You can train them, but you’ve gotta start with, like, a singer can sing. You gotta you gotta start with that.

Brittany Hodak [00:22:46]:

Well and let’s talk about training because I know one of the things that you have done on a lot throughout your career as empathy training. And I feel like empathy has become something of a buzzword, you know, and it’s like empathy and authenticity and all the things that we hear, but the reason they’re buzzwords is because they’re important, and so many companies did not do them for so long. So with empathy in particular, which I know you and I both believe very strongly is a critical component for anyone who’s working in customer experience or customer service. But How do you how do you train for empathy? How do you work that muscle or train up that muscle the same way you would with a singer who you’re helping become an even greater singer? What are some of the things that you suggest people to do to build up that empathy muscle and their teammates.

Stacy Sherman [00:23:27]:

So as the leader of an organization, What’s important is to pay attention to what people are doing and use those as coachable moments. So if you take just, for example, The elevator. You’re stuck. Listen to how that service who’s that service rep or champion who Took that call from the elevator. How are they responding to the person stuck? Are they automated? Are they Just following a script, or can you really hear that they care and they actually could feel your fear? It’s being stuck. How long it’s gonna be? You can listen for that, and then you take that because they’re recorded. And now sit down with your people and say, this is what you did really well. This is where the opportunity is, and that needs empathy when you’re stuck, where there’s some crisis, where there’s any pain point.

Stacy Sherman [00:24:26]:

So you can use real life examples to help teach. The other thing is, especially customer service reps, agents, They have such a monotonous job. It it’s just it’s there’s there’s a reason. There’s a high attrition rate. So I think that what’s important is that people can, really help To understand, put yourself in the agent’s shoes and identify no cookie cutter approach. Really help them. Where do they need help? Is it computer skills? Is it the biases that they have? Is it that they’re in pain because of they just 1 woman had a stroke before I hired her? Thank god she told me, but it explained why she was the way she was, and I was able to work with that. So ask people, Listen, find opportunities in real time to then coach and teach and reinforce.

Brittany Hodak [00:25:36]:

Yeah. Everything everything can become a teachable moment. Right? And I think modeling the behavior and responding As a leader in those moments, the way that you hope your team members respond to your customers is one of the most important pieces of training that exists.

Stacy Sherman [00:25:51]:

Absolutely. Now there are tools. AI is common to help with some of those automated tasks to free up time to be able to service customers. It’s just not a replacement. It’s an enhancement.

Brittany Hodak [00:26:06]:

Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. I I’ve been telling people lately, When you’re asking yourself whether or not you should automate, the next question should be, does this elevate? Is this elevating either the customer experience or the employee experience in some way. And if not, then maybe it’s not quite time to automate that just yet.

Stacy Sherman [00:26:24]:

I agree. Yes.

Brittany Hodak [00:26:26]:

So, Stacy, one of my favorite commonalities that we share is we both happen to have been born on the best day of the entire year to be born.

Stacy Sherman [00:26:35]:

Yes. It is, and it’s right before the major holidays.

Brittany Hodak [00:26:40]:

Yes. So December 1st, Coming up here in just a just a few weeks, we will both share our birthdays. And one of the things that I’m excited to get your take on is things that you have seen companies do well from a birthday experiential standpoint. Any best, stories or, spotlights that you wanna you wanna throw somebody’s way for something that really got your attention in a great way on or around your birthday.

Stacy Sherman [00:27:09]:

Yeah. It’s the small stuff. It’s not the big, expensive prize. It’s the small stuff. It’s literally people filling out a handwritten card. And even if you’re remote, like, there’s there’s different ways you can do this. But getting a card and people actually writing something heartfelt is so beautiful. It is old fashioned, But yet I still appreciate it tremendously.

Stacy Sherman [00:27:39]:

I’ve saved it from different companies I’ve worked at. I don’t know. I cherish that. There’s something Little traditional in me.

Brittany Hodak [00:27:47]:

Yeah. You know, I so the last week’s episode of the podcast was with our dear friend, Joy Coleman, And we were talking about the employee experience in his new book, Never Lose an Employee Again. I love the idea of having an employee experience plan around birthdays because you’re right. If you aren’t acknowledged on your birthday by your employer, What a big, fat, awful way to say to your customers, we don’t care that much about you as an individual. Like, if you’re not even acknowledging their birthday, That is a huge missed opportunity. So, yes, in addition to the customer experience side, if you are not doing something right now to acknowledge to the birthday of every single one of your employees. That is your homework. That is your action item from this episode.

Stacy Sherman [00:28:34]:

Yeah. And I tell you, it’s such a miss. There’s many times it was my birthday, and I’d walk around when we were in the office. And I’d walk around, and And no one would say anything, and these were people I worked with closely. And I’d feel like, isn’t there a sign on my forehead it’s my birthday? And, no, there’s not. But I don’t know. I feel like anytime I took a job, especially when I had a team, it was the first question. Among the first questions in my onboarding, I wanna list of my team and their birthdays and special occasions.

Stacy Sherman [00:29:08]:

And it’s just so simple, but Not everybody does it. Well and I

Brittany Hodak [00:29:13]:

think that’s also a really great opportunity to talk about the differences from employee to employee and the personalization that you should employ because, like, for example, my husband hates celebrating his birthday. Makes him Upset that people acknowledge it. I don’t know why. We are very different in that way, but he would, like, not go to work on his birthday for years years because he was afraid people were gonna say, like, hey. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. So having a plan that isn’t, like, across the board, here’s what we’re doing. There’s a card that everyone signs and, you know, a cake in the break room because some people aren’t gonna want their acknowledge.

Brittany Hodak [00:29:46]:

So, also, having the conversations with your teammates to understand, is this somebody who is excited about this holiday or would rather pretend this holiday doesn’t exist?

Stacy Sherman [00:29:56]:

Personalization is the way to go for everything, especially when it becomes so personal.

Brittany Hodak [00:30:04]:

So As a customer, what is a birthday surprise or acknowledgment that you received that you were blown away by?

Stacy Sherman [00:30:16]:

I would say this is not birthday related. Okay. But it’s something that’s memorable, And I tell this a lot when I’m speaking. And it’s do you know the company Stacy’s Chips? It’s a pita chips company. Yes.

Brittany Hodak [00:30:32]:

Yeah. You get them on airplanes oftentimes. Okay.

Stacy Sherman [00:30:36]:

So, Stacy, When she owned this company, her name was Stacy.

Brittany Hodak [00:30:41]:

And I’ll just be just be clear. No relation. Right? This is not you, Stacy. This is different Stacy.

Stacy Sherman [00:30:47]:

K. No. So Stacy, 

Brittany Hodak [00:30:49]:

have an affinity for the chips.

Stacy Sherman [00:30:51]:

And now even more so. So she spelled her name the owner of the company Spelled her name like mine, Stacy without an e. So she somehow did the most brilliant marketing where she got a list of all the Stacy’s. I I think this was USA based. I don’t know for sure. And she sent a box of Stacy’s chips, pita chips, different flavors, In a box, it said to Stacy from Stacy. Got it at my door, and I’m like, what is this? Open it up, and there’s Stacy chips, and she wrote a a note that said, I’m sending this to many, many Stacy’s here, and enjoy my chips. And just just a heartfelt message.

Stacy Sherman [00:31:35]:

That was it. Not selling. Maybe there was a coupon inside. Who knows? But I still tell this story because it was unexpected. It was creative, and I remember it, and I’m talking about it years later here. So That’s a good tip for marketers and customer experience who want to create wow moments. That was.

Brittany Hodak [00:31:57]:

That was, and I’m sure it felt like your birthday even if it wasn’t because Stacy sent Stacy chips. That is a very cool story.

Stacy Sherman [00:32:04]:

It did. It did feel like my birthday. Who sends me a box of yeah. Like yes. It it felt like it. Well, Stacey, thank you so much for hanging out with me on the show. For anybody who wants to learn more about you and doing CX Right, where should they go? So doing CX Right.com has Lots of information and helpful resources and my podcast, including Brittany on my show, that just won a a W3 award. So, really proud of it.

Stacy Sherman [00:32:35]:

It’s a labor of love. And, yeah, I love Sharing knowledge and helping to drive more people doing CX right.

Brittany Hodak [00:32:45]:

It is one of my favorite podcasts. Everybody should check it out. And if you ever have the opportunity to hang out with Stacy or see her speak on stage, I highly recommend that you do because She will absolutely make you understand that it is not just optional but imperative to do CX right.

Stacy Sherman [00:33:04]:

Thank you

Brittany Hodak [00:33:04]:

Thanks, Stacy.

Alright. That’s all the time we have for today’s episode of the creating super fans podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. Now remember, if you’re a super fan of today’s episode, you can help us out in a big way by leaving a review and a rating wherever you get your podcast. It may seem like a little Thing that it can make a huge difference in helping others discover the show. Now until next time, remember, super fandom is a two way street.

Show your love for your customers and your employees, and they’ll love you right back. We’ve got an exciting show lined up for next week, so I hope we’ll see you right back here. Bye bye.